Landsskytterstevnet rifle question (English - sorry)

[kombayotch]

Hi,

 

I'm sorry, I do not speak Norwegian, so I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this. I hope no one is offended by me asking in English.

 

I have an interest in the type of shooting you do in the video shown here:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/200 ... ire-match/" target="_blank

 

We do a type of shooting here in Canada called "Service Rifle" that is normally shot with a C7 (or AR-15). I would like to try it with a bolt action rifle. Some of the matches would required fast shooting like you do in your Landsskytterstevnet. I know the preferred rifle for this is the Sauer 200 STR, and that it is also shot with a Krag or M67. The Sauer is pretty expensive, and Krags and M67's are sometimes hard to come by. Plus, we normally use 5.56x45mm (.223 Rem) ammunition for this.

 

What I'm wondering is if people sometime train or practice for Landsskytterstevnet on inexpensive modern commercial rifles, and if so, what kind are popular? Something with a smooth action that doesn't bind, I would imagine. The cocking force would probably also be a concern. A rifle that cocks on closing might be advantageous, but there are not many modern rifles that cock on close. Of the rifles I have looked at, the Tikka T3 looks like it might be a good candidate.

 

Any help would be appreciated. I came here because... well, Norwegians are the experts on this kind of shooting.

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Kris

Edited May 6, 2014 by Guest

[kombayotch]

Here are some videos of our service rifle matches, for those interested:

 

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This is the rule book for the match:

http://www.dcra.ca/2014%20docs/2014%20N ... -02-06.pdf

 

Kris

[OIH]

Mausers and Krags are plentiful here, and can be bought for very little money. The rapid shooting matches were not exclusivly won by Sauers, well tuned mausers and krags also won occasionally. Lately HK G3 have been allowed for this event if the owner has some army connection that grants him/her a service rifle, and though the trigger is rubbish it has been hard to beat on the rapid fire events ("Stangskyting", named after Colonel Stang). Nowadays army personnell are equipped with HK 416s in 5.56 Nato, and there is talk about allowing 5.56 in the competition. There is som interest in Sauers in 5.56.

 

As for your original question; those who own Sauers use them for both training and competition. Eager competitors swap barrels after 3-5000 shots. Same with Mausers and Krags. Mauser M67 and M59 can be had for 2-3000 NOK (~300-500USD) sometimes less.

 

There is talk about a practical rifle class for bolt actions as semi autos are a bit unpc at the moment.

 

You might wanne take a look at the Mossberg MVP, if the action is slicked up it might be what you need:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/rifles/centerfire/mvp-series

 

It uses AR15 magazines etc.

 

Øivind

 

Edited:

Stangskyting is not "Pole shooting"

Takk Ole Brum!

Edited May 7, 2014 by Guest

[VeT|Us]

I'd venture to say it's very uncommon for anyone to practice the Stangskyting you see at Landsskytterstevnet with anything else than a Sauer, Krag or Mauser, or G3/HK416 for military personel.

 

The organisation that hosts Landsskytterstevnet is called DFS, and our rules are very strict with regards to what weapons you use in competitions. For instance in Stangskyting you can only use the aforementioned rifles. You will not be allowed to participate with, say, a Tikka. Hell, you won't be allowed to participate with your Sauer/Krag/M67 if you refinished the stock with a darker stain than original.

 

Should someone try to think outside the box or step outside our very clear guidelines we wait until the dead of night, kidnap them and burn them alive on a cross while we chant "conformity, conformity. What has been shall forever be!"

[Rausheim]

Afaik from readin' your rule book, it would be more or less comparable to Jaktfelt (You walk in a group and fire towards targets with animal photo's on 'em on various ranges at each stage) regarding the firearm and restrictions on what to put on 'em.

 

You would get by with any run of the mill gun in 5,56x45 that has a decent smooth action. Also a detachable magazine if you need to or can change mags during the stage (did not read everything lol). As suggested here, the Mossberg MVP might be a good candidate.

 

Of the guns used in DFS (the shootin' in Norway you linked to) the only one that's expensive is the Sauer. The Krag and Mauser-variants you can get as cheap as 150 bucks here (Yeah, I know they can cost an arm and a leg over there). You also have 22lr conversions of the rifles for indoor-use where the "big" ones ain't allowed. Also stated, if you think outside of the box in DFS you get burned on a cross.

[Palinder]

What about a Sako 75/85 with a competition stock, or any rifle with good presicion and a smooth action... The Tikka is not a bad choice either. With an aftermarket stock you'll be well equipped for rapid shooting competitons. What is just as important as the rifle is the shooting sling. In these competitons, both the civillians shooting Sauer/Mauser/Krag, and the army guys with their G3-rifles use slings. These are critical to be able to control the rifle through the recoil and make shure it bounces back to the same position. It also makes aiming much easyer.

 

Buy a Tikka or another good rifle, put on a steady stock and rehearse quick reloading insanely much, and you are well equipped for competition.

[Palinder]

Try these links. I'm not certain that they'll work in Canada, however, because this is the service of the national broadcaster. But give them a go..

 

http://tv.nrk.no/serie/landsskytterstevnet/mspo30160412/17-08-2012

 

http://tv.nrk.no/serie/landsskytterstevnet/mspo30150613/09-08-2013

 

Fast forward to the shooting. It starts at about 8min in the first link and at 6.30 in the second one. Enjoy

 

Also, the name Stangskyting is not translated "pole shooting" as mentioned in one of the previous posts. The name has nothing to do with poles(stang) but with the "inventor" colonel Stang. For your information.

[kombayotch]

Thank you for your replies. Unfortunately, I cannot view those videos here, but thank you.

 

The videos I posted may be a bit misleading. They show mostly the movement portions of the match because that makes the match look very exciting. There are portions where you must move a short distance, then drop to the ground and shoot 10 shots in 30 seconds. This would be quite similar to your Stangskyting (once you start shooting). This is at 300, 400 and 500 meters. There are also portions where you start standing. Then the target is exposed for 8 seconds. During this time, you must drop to the ground and hit it twice. This is done 5 times on the same target.

 

I am not worried about the stock or the magazine. There are companies like Manners that make traditional style stocks, and there are companies that make tactical ones like this one: http://mdttac.com/lss-chassis-for-tikka-t3-sa.html

 

These stocks will take Accuracy International magazines of Accurage Mag ones. They both make a .223 magazine.

 

My main concern is how fast I can operate the bolt smoothly. When I try this with some rifles, the cocking of the action is very disruptive to aiming. Does the Sauer rifle cock when you raise the bolt, or when you close it? There does not seem to be any resistance when the bolt handle is being lifted.

 

I will look at the Sako and the Mossberg.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Guest

[kombayotch]

Do you know how smooth the Mossberg action is? I have many Remingtons actions. They are fine if you are working them slowly, but the bolt jams if you try to work them quickly if you aren't careful to push them straight.

[Palinder]

The Sauer cocks on opening, and there IS resistance. It doesn't seem to be any resistance simply because these shooters are insanely good at what they do. Also, a good oiling of all gliding surfaces helps a bit. But mainly, the answer is an enormous amount of training. The shooters you see in these videos go through thousands of rounds each year, and many of them have been doing so since they where kids. All with the same rifle!

 

Operating the bolt is of corse a big part of being good at this particular kind of shooting, but with a smooth action like the Tikka, a Sako or the like, or any kind of good mechanism, you can quite fast become good at speedy reloading. The real magic is that they actually manage to hit fairly small targets at long distances while doing so.

 

Take a look at this video, where they stage a fight between the four different kinds of rifles allowed in the competition.

 

Take a look at the man shooting with a Mauser! Okay, so he is unfortunate, and has a jam, but look at the speed when he's doing it right! The Mauser M98 is not particularly well known for its smooth action.. (If you're wondering, the Krag Jørgensen, this particular one in the video was made in 1897( ) is known to be maybe the smoothest action ever made, so that's no big surprise.)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK8fSVuxVaU Fast forward to 2.46

 

I have no idea about the Mossberg, but look at the Mauser in the video, and start thinking about ways to polish up your Remingtons!

[Palinder]

The big difference between the Sauer and many other rifles is that on the Sauer you really don't need to polish the action. Still, you can rest assured that all of the Sauers in this competition has a fresh layer of oil on all gliding surfaces.

 

But again: The sling is vital to managing the rifle. This also goes for cocking the rifle without much movement of anything but the bolt. However, if you really get your speed up, the reloading is done mainly during recoil anyway..

 

Third; for speed, you should really consider an action made for the cartridge length. That is, the Tikka comes with only one length, I think, whereas the Sako, for instance, comes with action lengths fitted to the cartridge. It takes considerably less time and effort, at least for beginners, to recock an action fitted to the 223-cartridge compared to the same action fitted to a 6,5x55, which is the same length as a 30-06 action..

[Palinder]

The Sauer isn't THAT expensive..: http://usedfirearms.ca/ads/sig-sauer-ssg-300/

 

Edit: Wrong caliber, I know. Sorry.

[OIH]

The Sauer has a "Fat Bolt" type bolt, i.e. the locking lugs are the same diameter as the bolt itself. This feature allows for very smooth repetition. It also features 3 lugs, which means the opening angle of the action can be a little less. There are other fatbolts out there, Schultz & Larsen, but it takes a serious rebuild to make it suitable for your needs.

 

There is also the Sauer 202 Wild Boar. "Civilian" Sauer with a 8 shot magazine.

 

Still a budget blower...

 

Øivind

[Palinder]

Thompson center icon might be a candidate in this respect... Fat bolt design and generally good enough..

[Onetap]

Hi.

 

Another question about Stangskyting.

 

Could someone please tell me the dimensions (maximum width x height) of the targets used, the ones shown in this video at 2m19s;

 

Also, could you confirm the distances that the contest is fired at?

 

I understand that one target ( the wider triangular one?) is fired at from 125 to 175 meters, and the other (the 'head' target ?) at a distance of 200 to 250 m.

 

I apologise for my complete lack of Norwegian.

 

Many thanks for any help.

[høggern]

"head" target (småen) is 30 cm high and 25 cm wide.

It has maximum range of 175 meters in stang shooting.

 

Triangular target (1/4) is 33 cm high and 49 cm wide. It has maximum range of 250 meters in stang shooting.

[høggern]

Also stated, if you think outside of the box in DFS you get burned on a cross.

Thats bullshit, and nothing else.

[Onetap]

"head" target (småen) is 30 cm high and 25 cm wide.

It has maximum range of 175 meters in stang shooting.

 

Triangular target (1/4) is 33 cm high and 49 cm wide. It has maximum range of 250 meters in stang shooting.

 

Many thanks, Hoggern. All my questions answered in a few words.

[Telefonoperatør]

For what it is worth, I have the Mossberg MVP and while the action is quite smooth, the bolt probably need some work to get a proper grip if you are going to fast-fire it. If the idea is to follow the Stangskyting-rules with a rifle just for the sake of it, I guess you could do that with any rifle you are familiar with that has a good and smooth mechanism. At least a mauser-receiver should be easily available over there right?

[høggern]

"head" target (småen) is 30 cm high and 25 cm wide.

It has maximum range of 175 meters in stang shooting.

 

Triangular target (1/4) is 33 cm high and 49 cm wide. It has maximum range of 250 meters in stang shooting.

 

Many thanks, Hoggern. All my questions answered in a few words.

I forgot to write, the targets are often not at maximum range, "normal range" for småen is often 130-170 meters and "normal range" for 1/4 is often 200-250 meters.

[høggern]

Stang shooting program has 25 seconds shooting time. You must have a loaded rifle with safety on. You can have 1 round in chamber and 5 rounds in every magazine. At order "READY" that is 5 seconds before order "FIRE", you kan shoulder your rifle and switch off safety. At order "FIRE" you start shooting. First you fire at småen. After 25 seconds its "STOP".

 

After a break you shoot the same program at 1/4 target.

The guy with most hits on both targets together wins.

My personal best is 34 hits with AG3

[Kalstad]

Edited:

Stangskyting is not "Pole shooting"

Takk Ole Brum!

Poledancing with shooting....

[Onetap]

"head" target (småen) is 30 cm high and 25 cm wide.

It has maximum range of 175 meters in stang shooting.

 

Triangular target (1/4) is 33 cm high and 49 cm wide. It has maximum range of 250 meters in stang shooting.

 

Many thanks, Hoggern. All my questions answered in a few words.

I forgot to write, the targets are often not at maximum range, "normal range" for småen is often 130-170 meters and "normal range" for 1/4 is often 200-250 meters.

 

Thanks for the information, Mr Hoggern.

 

I had been interested in whether the Mad Minute scores of 37 or 38 rounds in a minute ( attributed to pre-1914 British Army instructors at the School of Musketry) were realistic, or whether, as many internet experts claimed (mostly Americans), they were scores that had been made up for British propaganda.

 

I compared the MOA accuracy and rates of fire with Stangskyting shooters, since this was the only comparable bolt-action rapid fire speed contest. My conclusion was that the scores were plausible, in that they were similar to those achieved by the top Stangskyting shooters.

 

Shortly afterwards, on 31/5/2015, a Mr Thomas Høgåsseter confirmed this theory by scoring 36 hits in one minute on a 40 cm target at 200 metres at Soknedal, an accuracy better than those claimed for the pre-WW1 mad Minute shooters.

 

I'd just like to say very well done Mr Høgåsseter. I'm so impressed I'd buy him a drink if I ever met him. If it was in Norway, he'd have to settle for a coffee, though.

 

Now if anyone can beat 36 rounds using a SMLE, I'd buy them a beer. In Norway!