Silencer

[Mjolnir]

Hallo,

 

i am new to this Forum, but speak no Norwegian. A Friend recommended to ask my Question here. Ist is about Silincers for Full Bore Hunting Rifles. I am a German Physicist. I was asked to to outperform the following:

 

> Teknisk informasjon:

> Vekt: ca.450 gram

> Diameter: 44,40 mm

> Total lengde: 235 mm

> Materiale: Aluminium med stål lammeler Ekstra lengde på våpenet: 155

> mm Bygger inn over løpet: 80 mm

> Lyddemping: Ca. 32,2 DBC

> Fritt salg. http://www.wingevapen.no/index.php?do=product&id=2010" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank (2490 NKr ~ 316 €)

 

I tentatively calculated a Desigh in full 7075 T6, a six Chamber Aluminium Design, prodtruding 200 mm before the Muzzle with 50 mm outer Ø to weigh 320 g.

 

To further Reduce the Weight, Carbon Fibre Compossites would have to be be emploeyd, reducing Weight to 250 g, but raising the Price probably above 400 €.

 

Now my Question is, for a really well damping Silencer, would such Dimensions and Pricing in Norway appeal to You Hunters?

 

I was asked to refrain from blue, as reservered for Moderatorss, so i switch to green!

 

Reagrds Mjolnir

Edited March 27, 2011 by Guest

[Hedmarkingen]

Yes, and welcome to the forum

[Mr.Polar]

Hello and welcome to the asylum

Silencer during hunting and schooting in Norway,is very usual. And the silencer you ref to in the link is an verry good silencer,whit an good price.

But there is alot of types to choose between..

This is also a good silenser..and cheaper: http://www.finn.no/finn/torget/tilsalgs ... e=21414268

Sorry but my english is not so good..

[Skarpsniker]

I'd buy it as long as it will also outperform my Hausken silencer regarding dB suppression. The price is not that deterring, actually. Kein problem als. However, if you are planning on manufacturing and selling it in/from Deutschland, the Norwegian import toll would probably kill it... A new Hausken Standard comes at about €450 give or take. But that is produced in .no

[Lars_o]

There is no import toll on gun parts, just VAT. VAT comes on everything sold in Norway, wether it is produced here or not.

[trombone]

Hello Mjolnir, and welcome to the Dark Side

With increasing commonality, some downsides of full bore silencers have surfaced.

the race seems to be for the lightest possible unit, and several brands have experienced "popping". That is the silencer skips its threads and jumps off the gun. A chosen few have also exploded. with the expected shrapnel. Not a good day at the range at all.

 

My suggestion is that you aim to outperform not on weight, but on durability. Also keep in mind that some will shoot their silencers alot, so carbon fibers will be subjected to a lot of heat.

 

To the best of my lilmited knowledge, all steel silencers (or titanium) such as the Reflex are the only ones that does not have this risk. Or at least to a lesser degree.

 

that said, best of luck! We need better designs. Always.

 

Trombone

[Mjolnir]

Halllo Forum,

 

thanks for the nice Wellcome. Lete me comment first on the last Post. Trombone shines Light on some Downsides and asks for Durability, after having mentioned, the Race seems to be on for the lightes Unit. Now light Constructions will most likely be off Aluminium, Titanium or Carbon Fibre. True is, the latter will not survive sustained Fire - only a few Shots in a Row, but as I intend those for Hunters I expected no sustained Fire anyway. Also Carbon fibre comes at a raised Price.

 

Next Aluminium, say the tough 7075 T6 Version, gives very good Strengths for its Weight, but Corrosion is a Threat. Overall for no full auto Firing such is a a very good Choice or Compromise between Strength, Weight Price.

 

Now Titanium is excellent on Corrosion - in a hunters Life = forever! - but hard to get in higher Strengh. Lower Strength (pure Titanium, no Alloys) give not much Advantage on Weight, but still carry ugly Machining and high Cost. So that is not a very viably Choice anyway.

 

Steel is the good old Material to rely on an buy and machine cheaply, but will be heavier. All these Comparions relate to available Materials only.

 

So when Trombone both asks for lightes Weight and Durability in the Same Post, the Answer is, You cannot have both in the Same Unit. One would either design for Durability (CrNiSteel) or lightes Weight (High Strength Aluminium). As s Sport Shooter, Chrme Nickel Steel is adequate. As a Hunter Aluminium would be. The Al Unit will still sustain a few thousand Shots - but with some Time in between, please! Steel You may shoot red hot!

 

With Steel You end up at Things like the A-Tec MAXIM, which exists already an needs not to be duplicated. You are at a Pound Weight.

 

Sharpsniker wrote

 

"I'd buy it as long as it will also outperform my Hausken silencer regarding dB suppression. The price is not that deterring, actually."

 

Hausken Patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030145718.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

 

Yes that can be done, but how much Volume or Diameter an Length in Front of the Muzzle will You tolerate. I believe a Devicce with the the mentioned 20 cm length in Front of the Muzzle and 5 cm Diameter will do. But ist that acceptable?

 

Regards Mjolnir

[Terkel]

I think 20cm in front of the muzzle is a bit to much. Even if you can get it down to a fairly low weight. I would rather have a silencer that would build a bit more down the barrel. Espescially for those calibers who doesnt like short barrels, an even longer silencer can be a problem.

[Mjolnir]

Terkel,

 

an improved (for Durability, as earlier requested) five Chamber Design (one less than before) would protrude 17,5 cm before the Muzzle and weigh 318 Gramm. Damping would be a bit less. If Damping had to be regained, the first Chamber would have to extend back from the Muzzle, but such backward Extension is not so efficient if You conisder Damping for Weight. That means a reaward Extension around the Barrel would add more Weight to dampen the same Decibels, as when applied in Front.

 

The Reference I have been told

 

Teknisk informasjon:

> Vekt: ca.450 gram

> Diameter: 44,40 mm

> Total lengde: 235 mm

> Materiale: Aluminium med stål lammeler Ekstra lengde på våpenet: 155

> mm Bygger inn over løpet: 80 mm

> Lyddemping: Ca. 32,2 DBC

 

extends from the Muzzle 15,5 cm in Front and 8 cm in the Back, weighs 450 g.

 

So I wonder whether for the same Damping (that for me is sufficient to shoot comfortably without Earplugs in the open Field or Forrest) the extra 2 cm Length in the Front longerer than the Reference to a total 17,5 cm would be o.k, when the Weight stays at 318 g.

 

I wish everyone a good Sunday!

 

Mjolnir

[Terkel]

With my long barreled rifle, the reference a-tec maxim, isnt the best choice either. Of course a reduction in db is important, but if the balance in the weapon has to be sacrified to acomplish this, i would rather have a bit shorter silencer and better balance. (Its not and option to cut down the barrel more than it already is).

 

But when it comes to the balance, Maybe the 2 cm longer build from the barrel is better than adding more weight down the barrel? It all depends on how much more weight you need to add down the barrel to achieve what you want. Maybe the light weight doesnt make the extra 2cm a problem. Its hard to know without having one to mount on the rifle.

[sirhitalot]

i personally prefer that the silencer extends as little as possible in front of the muzzle, instead having a rather large chamber that extends backwards, like th BR reflex. However the BR is both very heavy and dont supress so much. Now the Sonic 45 is a nother alternative, taking the best from the S&L Hard-core but keeps the added length to a minimum. Im not sure how good the damping effect is yet, but id bet its very good if the hole is tight enough.

[Mads]

I got a Sonic 45 with a 47cm barrel on my Savage Edge .308w and it damps good enough for me and the silencer is build up like other silencers and I can't say anything else than I am comfortable with it. It also makes the recoil much better so your rifle is much more comfortable to shoot with, the other silences damps the recoil too..

I think the Sonic 45 have a nicer look than the TMD 45/35.. But thats what I think.

I have no problem to recommend the Sonic 45 silencer.. It is cheap too!

 

Sorry for bad english but hey, I'm norwegian

[Mjolnir]

Mads,

 

You quote a "Sonic 45" Silencer. I do not know it nor get easis Hits with Google. Would You please be so kind, to post a URL to enlighten me on it.

 

Sorrry my Norwegian is not so good, but I am German.

 

Mjolnir

[Mads]

If u go here : http://weewoostorage.com/katalog2011/ and to page 13/14 u will find some info of it

[Mjolnir]

Thanks Mads,

 

for the URL. If I see and undertstand right the Sonic 45 extends 11 cm before the Muzzle and covers the Barrel 15 cm in the Back. That Design seems rather heavy build and will quite probably not efficiently dampen the Bang! Weight is unfortunately not not stated.

 

My Question: How much weighs the outlined 45 mm Ø Sonic 45 Lyd demper (Norwegian!)?

 

Terkel wrote:

“[…] but if the balance in the weapon has to be sacrified to acomplish this, i would rather have a bit shorter silencer and better balance.[…]

 

Sir hit a lot wrote:

“[…]i personally prefer that the silencer extends as little as possible in front of the muzzle, instead having a rather large chamber that extends backwards, like the BR reflex.[…]

 

An already well balanced Rifle will not tolerate any Weight added anywhere. So the next best is to add as little weight as possible as close to the Mass center of the Rifle. Torque is a Vektor equalling Mass x Distance (from the previous Mass center). So both less Mass as less Lever length are equally important to produce as little Torque as possible.

 

A Rifles Mass center is above the Point where You hold it in one Hand on the Stock and it has no more Tendency to tilt.

 

 

This Rifle has the Mass center less 300 g Feuerschlucker 45 cm before the back Stock end. With the FS7 added on the Muzzle, the Mass center moves jsut 5 cm forward. I find this accetpable. The Rifle handles still comfortable as before.

 

 

It is the Rilfe of a small (in Size and Weight) Girl, my Daughter.

 

Again the FS7 is not a Silencer but a different Muzzle device to comply with German Gun Law on Silencers. So the FS7 is designed not to be one. You in Norway do not have that Issue. So I wonder how I could set up a comparative Test with some Audience and Participants for the new Device (Nowegian ideal Silencer "NIS").

 

Mjolnir

[Mads]

The weight is 410 or 450grams.

[Terkel]

 

A Rifles Mass center is above the Point where You hold it in one Hand on the Stock and it has no more Tendency to tilt.

 

 

This Rifle has the Mass center less 300 g Feuerschlucker 45 cm before the back Stock end. With the FS7 added on the Muzzle, the Mass center moves jsut 5 cm forward. I find this accetpable. The Rifle handles still comfortable as before.

 

 

Mjolnir

 

Try this with a long barrel and a composite stock, and the mass center moves quite a bit.

 

It also makes one hell of a long rifle...

[sirhitalot]

Mads,

 

You quote a "Sonic 45" Silencer. I do not know it nor get easis Hits with Google. Would You please be so kind, to post a URL to enlighten me on it.

 

Sorrry my Norwegian is not so good, but I am German.

 

Mjolnir

Yes, its pretty new and unknown, a buddy of me bought it from jaktdepotet.no . you can se a bit of info at page 15/16 on their catalogue

http://jaktdepotet.weewoostorage.com/me ... logen2011/

Ive got 4 different kinds of silencers, and made two myself, and from what i know, this design looks pretty good. I wish you the best on your project, and hope to see some pictures after the patent is cleared:)

[jonnyvang]

For a lightweight benchmark you should look at the A-tec CTM4 http://www.wingevapen.no/index.php?do=product&id=1524

Very light (280 grams) and has "good enough" suppression of the muzzle blast on standard calibres.

[Mjolnir]

The low Sonic 45 Price probably cannot "outweigh" its high 410 to 450 g Mass, I believe, considering Posts regarding Mass before. But other Solutions to reduce Ear pain were mentioned:

 

> A-Tec CTM 4 Alu.( Compact modular moderator - 4 Moduler)

> CTM 4 reduserer 308W ca 23-27db - Ø39,5 - Ca 280gram

> Vekt: 280 gram Diameter: 40 mm Total lengde: 240 mm Materiale: Aluminium

> Ekstra lengde på våpenet: 160 mm

> Kr 3.390,--

 

Now that "A-Tec CTM 4 Alu" seems to me a rather good Compromise between, Mass, Eleongation and Damping. The Price seems to be in the normal Range. If that is regarded a reasonable competitive Offer from A-Tec, I wonder wehre to optimize to create a better Lyd Demper! Therfore let me asl Questions to the Forum:

 

1. Should further Optimization first try to reduce Weight (and a. raise Price or b. reduce Damping)?

2. Should further Optimization first try to reduce Elengation (and reduce Weight and reduce Damping)?

3. Should further Optimization first try to reduce Price (and increase Weight)?

 

Mjolnir

[sirhitalot]

in norway we now have a couple of silencers that are pretty cheap, so how i see it, the best you can do is to try to reduce the sound, keeping the low weight. if its possible, try to make it more durable by using small stainless steel inserts in the middle. these just need to be 5mm around the hole to fight the worst erosion. There isnt any silencers at the market that have steel inserts and small volume and low weight...

[Hedmarkingen]

Mjolnir's web page is located here:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de

[Reveenkemaker]

I would not like to buy a silencer.

I would like to buy silencer modules that I could put together like I wanted to.

Someone mentioned bi-metal I think. It would be great to have steel where the muzle flames really blows on the surface, but have the rest of the silencer as corrosion resistant aluminium.

Would not be too bad with Titanium eather, but a litle expensive I think.

[Sauer 150]

in norway we now have a couple of silencers that are pretty cheap, so how i see it, the best you can do is to try to reduce the sound, keeping the low weight. if its possible, try to make it more durable by using small stainless steel inserts in the middle. these just need to be 5mm around the hole to fight the worst erosion. There isnt any silencers at the market that have steel inserts and small volume and low weight...

 

I beg to differ.

 

Schultz & Larsen Hardcore TMD 35 har low weight, small volume and steel inserts to improve durability. Cost was around 1200Nok retail last year. I belive these prices have gone up approx 30% since there now is one more stop in the value chain compared to last year.

 

High dampening, steel reinforcements, large volume and short added lenght has some obvious contradictions that is very hard to combine in one product. Especially if cost of manufacturing has to stay below a certain target cost for a product.

[Hugin]

With the latest developement in incidendts involving silencers I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would encourage the production of another silencer that requires the user to carefully consider the number of shots fired in order to be safe. That said, I also find it unthinkable to mount a piece of equipment on my rifle that reduces its solidity and operational safety. Chasing weight will only result in a situation where something has to give, and perhaps in the future a requirement that all silencers be tested/certified, resulting in perhaps even heavier and more expensive silencers. Meanwhile, we risk damage to ourselves, fellow shooters and property by shedding a few grams at the expense of solidity and durability.

 

The argument that a silencer is made for hunters and therefore will not be subjected to such rigors is in my opinion irresponsible and reckless.

[Reveenkemaker]

I don't think silencers need to be more heavy to be stronger.

By simulation it should be posible to see whitch komponent will be under the most stress and how they will be stressed.

This way it should be possible to use just the right amount of material in the right places.

I might be wrong, but I doubt that the current manufacturers are going this deep into theory.

A CFD program like openfoam might come in handy to see how sound waves and heat flow in the silencer.

Then go from there to see what kind of mecanical and thermal stress will be aplied to the silencer.

 

(PS. I did not toutch mecanics since I finished tecnical coledge 11years ago so I most likely have no idea what I'm talking about)